Post by GLSHOOTER on Jan 22, 2018 15:25:32 GMT -8
Anyone reading this knows the 6.8 SPC came on the scene several years ago. Its was supposed to be a special purpose cartridge, SPC, and would be applied to the battlefield. It has received rave reviews in doing what it was designed to do which was to push a moderate weight bullet at a decent velocity giving better energy down range in a shorter range area of operations.
The shooting public, that would be us, decided that the 6.8 would be a great sporting cartridge and with the normal mind set of shooters decided to “make it better” This, of course, means we are going to massage it bigger, shorter, wider or skinnier but about all we won’t do is make it smaller at the base, well not yet anyway, in an attempt to make the perfect case for a given identified need/want.
We saw that a plethora of case variations were presented quickly. The DTI family appeared, the WOA showed up along with the 6X41 and the PDK series showed on the scene post haste. All of these 6.8 variants offered something to the shooters. Performance is without question obtainable in all of the offerings. Things that became apparent when reviewing these was that they all required A: Shoulder movement with the die, B: Fire forming to expand to shoulder angle changes, C: Trimming of the case length or D: A combination of several steps. Some of the variants are proprietary and are single source for chambering and reloading dies. Some were open source but shooters being what we are had variations of reamer design engineered into the picture. Getting a chambering on a good barrel was/is possible but many times the wait is longer than many of us can stand.
Six years ago Ritch Johnson produced a straight neck down on the 6.8 case making a 6X6.8. No shoulder angle changes, no fire forming and no trimming. Nothing spectacular by any stretch of the imagination. Just a basic solid wildcat. Cases were formed up using a Redding bushing die and bullets could be seated using a Hornady 6 MM seater or an altered 6.8 seater of a different brand. He was certainly not the first to do it nor will he be the last, reference the mess with it syndrome above.. When the first reamers was done a few barrels were chambered up and they got shot by Ritch and me. The initial testing turned up some things that were felt could be improved on so another reamer was obtained and testing started again. Still not quite right so Reamer#3 was done. As soon as the new barrels were shot it was apparent that the cartridge, as intended, was good for release. Lots of testing and lots of barrels later in the hands of the shooting public showed the 6X6.8 as a viable cartridge for everything from prairie dogs to antelope and everything in between.
Ritch and I started talking about maybe expanding the 6.8 offerings to other bore sizes. The others mentioned previously were forerunners to the project but the basic simple is better approach came to the front. Ritch and I spent many hours on the phone discussing what we would like the cartridge to do, what bullet weights, what twist rates and a large amount of chambering minutia of free bore, neck diameters for no-turn necks and potential performance. Vonage helped us out without any charges until that night that Ritch called me and said, “Well, it is on the way.” My response was to define “it.” He had called and placed an order for a 6.5 MM variant on the 6.8 case. A 6.5X6.8 was being ground to his specs. The goal was to be able to shoot bullets of decent weight up to about 130 or so and run with the other popular 6.5 chambering on the market. He sent me a reamer print and we talked some more.
A week later I picked up the phone and ordered up a reamer. I was going to show him that he wasn’t the only one that had a Gold Card. My choice was a 25 caliber as the quarter bore had always interested me. Mine would be the 25X6.8 I have a 25 WSSM but it is not one to go shoot all day if you expect any barrel life. I called Ritch and sent him my print and we talked some more.
Two days latter Ritch called and announced that a reamer was in play for a 22X6.8. My goodness we had invented a shooters Three Musketeers!! We then waited for things to develop.
This is what you will be seeing in the near future once we finish the pressure testing. I will be posting up groups and more information as it is amassed. These are Savage barrels but AR15 types are being produced . With the pressure testing equipment in place we aren't limited diagnosis of primer appearance, subjective functioning or case head abuse.
That being said here is the Family…
From left to right is the 22X6.8, the 6 MM, the 25X6.8, the 6.5X6.8, the 6.8 and finally the 30X6.8.
The first chambering shot was the 6.5X6.8. This is the first group shot when Ritch got it ready to go. 123 grain Nosler Competition Custom at 2670 FPS. 24” tube.
This one went 0.398 for the five shots. He had selected a load that he thought was safe and found the pressure level was quite reasonable. The itch was bad so after his initial trip with the 6.5X6.8 Ritch ran home and swapped the barrel out on the Savage to a 22X6.8.
His next trip to the desert was with some 69 grain Sierras loaded up. He had not shot many of these in the past but decided to take them for a drive. The group was a bit larger with horrendous mirage that day. CTC on this one was 0.572 at 3285 FPS. He shot five groups with this one and the average was right on 0.525. Once again pressures were good and showed that a bit more could be squeezed out of this one without any problem.
Shooting one bullet weight at a time after work kept Ritch busy. His next foray was with the 75 grain VMAX. This one was of interest to me as a long range target round and it did not let me down. You can read the group size on the target. Velocity was 3250 on this one. Pressures were acceptable and this one showed me the potential for the 69 grain loadings even more.
Trip three with the 22X6.8 showcased a bullet that is near and dear to me. The 50 grain Nosler BT is one that has hammered countless PD’s for me over the years and is a known performer on bigger targets. I pushed Ritch to see how this one would go. Five groups down the tube and good numbers with a nice one right at what we think should be MAX with this powder/bullet combo at 3775 shot in a heavy 20-30 MPH crosswind. The horizontal stringing was the wind and Ritch says this one will do the trick even smaller on a good day. This will be my PD shooter next year if mine does this well.
So that is where we stand.
The 22X6.8 and 65X68 have shown excellent potential. You note the picture of the family above and you see the 6MM there. It is already a proven round on the game and target fields. The next is the 25X6.8. It looks like a great balance between the 6MM and the 6.5. I hope this one is magic since it is the one I have my money on/in. LOL. The next is the 6.5X68. This may well turn into a great long range round. The minor testing done show that the speed will be there when we call for it and I fully expect to see this one run with my other AR’s I will shoot it 1000 until the longer 26” tubes show up for the Savage platform. Next is the original 6.8. A yeoman cartridge if ever there was one. I just got my first one and am looking forward to see how it does in 3 Gun. The last one is short fat and may be where it is at for the deer crowd. The 30X6.8 will be similar to the 30 HRT with some slight variations. It is being cut this week and with luck we can have it out test firing very quickly. This may be the hammer time entry in the 6.8 AR platform. No need to go to bigger barrel extensions or massive amounts of case massage. We have several little things planned for this one when it shows up and I believe the shooting public will enjoy what transpires.
All cartridges, except the 30, can be loaded with a 6.8 SPC TYPE S Redding F/L bushing die and an appropriate seater. The sizer runs around $60.00. A bushing for necking down from one caliber to the next will cost right on $14.00. Wilson brand are the best for this BTW. So to load all five would cost you $60.00 plus $70.00 for bushings or a total of $130.00. Seaters are variable a cost and many can be multi-caliber in use.
All TO barrels have polygonal rifling. This lowers pressures and gives better velocities at a given pressure as evidenced by some of the initial tests. A standard Enfield rifled barrel would show higher pressures and lowered velocity given the same barrel lengths as tested. The copper fouling that is seen on the barrels is usually extremely minimal as to be almost impossible to find even using strong copper solvents.
Barrels will soon be available from TO on a simple order basis with choices of appropriate AR barrel profiles, lengths and gas systems. The switch barrels will be available for Savage, Remington, Mossberg, Ruger.
A long post with some information for all that are interested. I hope it answers a few questions and gets some interest up for those inclined to go outside the box. Ritch Johnson was the shaker and mover on all of these.. My contribution as an instigator is clear and chronicling the events fell on my shoulders. Enjoy the new kids on the block and any feedback or questions are welcome.
Greg
The shooting public, that would be us, decided that the 6.8 would be a great sporting cartridge and with the normal mind set of shooters decided to “make it better” This, of course, means we are going to massage it bigger, shorter, wider or skinnier but about all we won’t do is make it smaller at the base, well not yet anyway, in an attempt to make the perfect case for a given identified need/want.
We saw that a plethora of case variations were presented quickly. The DTI family appeared, the WOA showed up along with the 6X41 and the PDK series showed on the scene post haste. All of these 6.8 variants offered something to the shooters. Performance is without question obtainable in all of the offerings. Things that became apparent when reviewing these was that they all required A: Shoulder movement with the die, B: Fire forming to expand to shoulder angle changes, C: Trimming of the case length or D: A combination of several steps. Some of the variants are proprietary and are single source for chambering and reloading dies. Some were open source but shooters being what we are had variations of reamer design engineered into the picture. Getting a chambering on a good barrel was/is possible but many times the wait is longer than many of us can stand.
Six years ago Ritch Johnson produced a straight neck down on the 6.8 case making a 6X6.8. No shoulder angle changes, no fire forming and no trimming. Nothing spectacular by any stretch of the imagination. Just a basic solid wildcat. Cases were formed up using a Redding bushing die and bullets could be seated using a Hornady 6 MM seater or an altered 6.8 seater of a different brand. He was certainly not the first to do it nor will he be the last, reference the mess with it syndrome above.. When the first reamers was done a few barrels were chambered up and they got shot by Ritch and me. The initial testing turned up some things that were felt could be improved on so another reamer was obtained and testing started again. Still not quite right so Reamer#3 was done. As soon as the new barrels were shot it was apparent that the cartridge, as intended, was good for release. Lots of testing and lots of barrels later in the hands of the shooting public showed the 6X6.8 as a viable cartridge for everything from prairie dogs to antelope and everything in between.
Ritch and I started talking about maybe expanding the 6.8 offerings to other bore sizes. The others mentioned previously were forerunners to the project but the basic simple is better approach came to the front. Ritch and I spent many hours on the phone discussing what we would like the cartridge to do, what bullet weights, what twist rates and a large amount of chambering minutia of free bore, neck diameters for no-turn necks and potential performance. Vonage helped us out without any charges until that night that Ritch called me and said, “Well, it is on the way.” My response was to define “it.” He had called and placed an order for a 6.5 MM variant on the 6.8 case. A 6.5X6.8 was being ground to his specs. The goal was to be able to shoot bullets of decent weight up to about 130 or so and run with the other popular 6.5 chambering on the market. He sent me a reamer print and we talked some more.
A week later I picked up the phone and ordered up a reamer. I was going to show him that he wasn’t the only one that had a Gold Card. My choice was a 25 caliber as the quarter bore had always interested me. Mine would be the 25X6.8 I have a 25 WSSM but it is not one to go shoot all day if you expect any barrel life. I called Ritch and sent him my print and we talked some more.
Two days latter Ritch called and announced that a reamer was in play for a 22X6.8. My goodness we had invented a shooters Three Musketeers!! We then waited for things to develop.
This is what you will be seeing in the near future once we finish the pressure testing. I will be posting up groups and more information as it is amassed. These are Savage barrels but AR15 types are being produced . With the pressure testing equipment in place we aren't limited diagnosis of primer appearance, subjective functioning or case head abuse.
That being said here is the Family…
From left to right is the 22X6.8, the 6 MM, the 25X6.8, the 6.5X6.8, the 6.8 and finally the 30X6.8.
The first chambering shot was the 6.5X6.8. This is the first group shot when Ritch got it ready to go. 123 grain Nosler Competition Custom at 2670 FPS. 24” tube.
This one went 0.398 for the five shots. He had selected a load that he thought was safe and found the pressure level was quite reasonable. The itch was bad so after his initial trip with the 6.5X6.8 Ritch ran home and swapped the barrel out on the Savage to a 22X6.8.
His next trip to the desert was with some 69 grain Sierras loaded up. He had not shot many of these in the past but decided to take them for a drive. The group was a bit larger with horrendous mirage that day. CTC on this one was 0.572 at 3285 FPS. He shot five groups with this one and the average was right on 0.525. Once again pressures were good and showed that a bit more could be squeezed out of this one without any problem.
Shooting one bullet weight at a time after work kept Ritch busy. His next foray was with the 75 grain VMAX. This one was of interest to me as a long range target round and it did not let me down. You can read the group size on the target. Velocity was 3250 on this one. Pressures were acceptable and this one showed me the potential for the 69 grain loadings even more.
Trip three with the 22X6.8 showcased a bullet that is near and dear to me. The 50 grain Nosler BT is one that has hammered countless PD’s for me over the years and is a known performer on bigger targets. I pushed Ritch to see how this one would go. Five groups down the tube and good numbers with a nice one right at what we think should be MAX with this powder/bullet combo at 3775 shot in a heavy 20-30 MPH crosswind. The horizontal stringing was the wind and Ritch says this one will do the trick even smaller on a good day. This will be my PD shooter next year if mine does this well.
So that is where we stand.
The 22X6.8 and 65X68 have shown excellent potential. You note the picture of the family above and you see the 6MM there. It is already a proven round on the game and target fields. The next is the 25X6.8. It looks like a great balance between the 6MM and the 6.5. I hope this one is magic since it is the one I have my money on/in. LOL. The next is the 6.5X68. This may well turn into a great long range round. The minor testing done show that the speed will be there when we call for it and I fully expect to see this one run with my other AR’s I will shoot it 1000 until the longer 26” tubes show up for the Savage platform. Next is the original 6.8. A yeoman cartridge if ever there was one. I just got my first one and am looking forward to see how it does in 3 Gun. The last one is short fat and may be where it is at for the deer crowd. The 30X6.8 will be similar to the 30 HRT with some slight variations. It is being cut this week and with luck we can have it out test firing very quickly. This may be the hammer time entry in the 6.8 AR platform. No need to go to bigger barrel extensions or massive amounts of case massage. We have several little things planned for this one when it shows up and I believe the shooting public will enjoy what transpires.
All cartridges, except the 30, can be loaded with a 6.8 SPC TYPE S Redding F/L bushing die and an appropriate seater. The sizer runs around $60.00. A bushing for necking down from one caliber to the next will cost right on $14.00. Wilson brand are the best for this BTW. So to load all five would cost you $60.00 plus $70.00 for bushings or a total of $130.00. Seaters are variable a cost and many can be multi-caliber in use.
All TO barrels have polygonal rifling. This lowers pressures and gives better velocities at a given pressure as evidenced by some of the initial tests. A standard Enfield rifled barrel would show higher pressures and lowered velocity given the same barrel lengths as tested. The copper fouling that is seen on the barrels is usually extremely minimal as to be almost impossible to find even using strong copper solvents.
Barrels will soon be available from TO on a simple order basis with choices of appropriate AR barrel profiles, lengths and gas systems. The switch barrels will be available for Savage, Remington, Mossberg, Ruger.
A long post with some information for all that are interested. I hope it answers a few questions and gets some interest up for those inclined to go outside the box. Ritch Johnson was the shaker and mover on all of these.. My contribution as an instigator is clear and chronicling the events fell on my shoulders. Enjoy the new kids on the block and any feedback or questions are welcome.
Greg